Over the next two Sundays he will continue to remind people to vote Yes and to take a Yes sign for their yard. @ sam: LOL! Thanks for sharing your perspectives Abi Mia and Nancy, I appreciate that. Connect With Us! (KY3) - OZARK, Mo. I do hope that nobody is still saying these same things before they clean up their own act. Not a fan but many are. Pastor John Lindell mentioned that Mark and Grace founded Mars Hill Church eighteen years ago. Applying this mode to spiritual abuse has gotten me thinking..and I wonder if in the future Mark will only hang around people/churches that are willing to stay on this Drama Triangle. I am not the judge of the hearts of men, but God has given us clues to the genuine presence of the Spirit, and I did not see it. The question may even be wrong, maybe it isnt what is the church but who is. I'm in on that. Who cares about that pesky truth so long as there are clean bathrooms, great hot coffee and rockin worship? Obviously, I disagree with Lindell on the upcoming vote. So far I define church as more what it isnt rather than what it is. Christian geneticist and U.S. National Institutes of Health Director Francis Collins suggested most churches should postpone in-person services due to COVID-19 until at least summer 2021, when every American is expected to have had the opportunity to get vaccinated, The Christian Post recently reported. some things i noticed are in (parenthesis) OT but of interest: the former pastor of a megachurch in Richmond, VA goes on trial tomorrow on charges of sexually abusing two minors in Texas some years ago. He needs a revenue stream and using Jesus is all he knows. (he is still famous and worthy of famous people helping him) things you have heard about mark are not even close to true, what you read on the internet isn't true. "He saw it for what it was. Rob Smiths orphanage was totally defunded and left broke by Marks Hill, the Lord has taken up for those children, thankfully. By and large, our local churches have been great examples of staying emotionally connected while protecting one another in this pandemicthis example does not do those congregations justice., I stg we're the dumbest country in world. He threatened to make sure that I could never be in ministry again. With this much covidiocy in the country, we are proving ourselves to be the dumbest nation on earth. Thats a great question to think about. The issue, however, is character, evidenced by a pattern of behavior reported with regard to bullying behavior, narcissitic traits, etc. Meanwhile, Mark Driscoll was preparing to deliver his sermon at James River Church, an Assemblies of God megachurch located in the "Show Me State" (Missouri). notable pastors have been pouring into his life. There seems to be a lot of the just finding out new information that everyone already knows about but which now changes everything affliction going around. If a pastor makes a statement denying allegations, its a lie. It was because of a backfire in strategy by then executive pastors Jamie Munson and Scott Thomas, who handled my discipline case. They did not want us to leave. I had been a pastor and fell horribly due to pride, arrogance, self centeredness, fear of man, desire for fame, etc. @ sam: They will promise to give you an authentic community to do life with. My old church Gateway has atmosphere teams in services to emotionally manipulate members and visitors. forgiveness means its paid in full. Hosting a giant event without distancing or masking is irresponsible and insulting to the people on the front lines of this crisis, most especially the health care workers who are overwhelmed. Until that flaw is named and claimed, it is reasonable to expect this kind of thing to happen again. But I did find this on the IRS website: A tax-exempt organization "may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.". James River Kids is the children's ministry of James River Church. OTOH, they may yet surprise us and probably even themselves. Seriously? I know historical accounts can be skewed. Before people know it, feeling loved and valued (and not realizing it was due to preplanned manipulation). they had a scandal about their homes for helping young women also, financial corruption-ish and not letting the women get outside counseling. But Peter rebuked him for his motives and told him to repent of his wickedness and told him he was gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.. Marks of a bully, and definitely not qualifications of an elder. In 2010, Outreach magazine listed James River as one of the fastest-growing churches in America. The church has spawned countless church plants, charities and conferences. Thank you. Certainly they all hire each other as guest speakers in order to pay large honorariums from tithe dollars that end up in each others personal bank accounts. They will promise to give you an authentic community to do life with. I could not exactly put my finger on what was wrong. I could not exactly put my finger on what was wrong. Of course but that is so remote given the environment I am not holding my breath. There has not been a frank identification of the flaw in the system that produced the horrific results. I think that the only way to self regulate is to have benchmarks that people must reach to be in leadership positions. appeciate your posts and the others on this blog. If there is one thing I know it is that those around Acts 29 circles are now in Mark who? Your comment is insightful and probably (for the AoG churches) right on the money. CCHD has been in contact with the City of Ozark, where the venue is located and where there is a current masking ordinance in place. Bah, hit reply to soon. I view it as wisdom. Look all those happy people; this must be a great place! The text is not prescriptive. The world has a lot higher standards and integrity than the whole xtian celebrity machine put together, and the internet helps everyone to see that. ), Odd how we often tend to read these things as definitive acvounts, when in reality, there are hints of many other things that go unmentioned. Yes, thanks for this. If the congregation, the pew sitter as you say, cannot do it what does that leave? i have been ousted from 6 churches already and at first i took it as me being in error and not able to understand the bible or what the Lord had called me to be like but now i am able to see that i can trust the still small voice inside and the Holy Spirit to give me understanding of the scriptures without having to run it by a pastor somewhere. I want to have the heart for the women in the future who will allow me to be their pastor that I have for my daughters, he said, and that is if they have spiritual gifts, and are called by God, and are godly, I want to help them achieve that intentionally and encourage that and be a support for that.. I understand exactly how you feel if that helps. Can anyone explain this James River Church thing to me? He needs to clean up the mess that he made. EXCLUSIVE: THE WEDDING's OFF! BRAD PITT FAMILY CAUGHT IN A GAY SCANDAL Actually, they have as much as said that there is a good root (their doctrines/practices that accidentally produced some bad fruit. Last week GW was desperately trying to give away as many copies as possible of some book COO Tom Lane wrote called Letters From a Dad to a Graduate. You sure would think so, but to quote H.L. Is there a third way that I have overlooked? Unfortunately I dont see loose associations of Christ followers functioning in my locale but I continually find more dones, those done with institutional church. Are you not voting? I hope you found some of the above helpful. I cant see those photos without also thinking of the images weve all seen of the impossible circumstances our hospitals are battling every day, Goddard began in a series of tweets. Yes he was forgiven, but be spent years away from his former life, maybe to relearn what Christ Jesus was about. Was Pastor Lindells statement just a slip or an attempt to rewrite history? I was mainly trying to establish there is a difference between lovable Hollywood Che and reality Che. How can a reasonable person look past that? mark chose to step down not mark was removed. With BHouston, JLindell and MD there is no hope. We saw a good deal of quick forgiveness/cheap grace from defenders of TVC. As the one did previously now the other is going thru the hoops of treatment and being checked on by outside agencies because being around the child is worth it. I would hope we should higher standards than that. hes a wonderful pastor to the very end. "We all have desires that are warped as a result of our fallen nature: pride, selfishness, greed, anger, bitterness, unforgiveness, lust, envy, covetousness, chemical addiction," Lindell said. It's because Caleb was allegedly involved in multiple sexual relationships while on staff at daddy's church and he was, The Gospel Coalition now says not everyone can be a missionary. I know, that sounds horribly arrogant but I lacked it in buckets for years. until he says otherwise what else can a person think? We know that Driscoll should never have been a pastor: lack of formal qualifications, lack of maturity in the faith (too young, and never been a member of a church before he started his own), lack of maturity in general; Whats worse, total lack of good character. Only the hero. Lindell needs to state, specifically, what has been written about Driscoll that is a lie, because he is in effect calling all the victims and the 40 pastors/elders who filed formal charges against MD liars. . Here are just some of the phrases he uses as he shares the story. Lindell then got personal with me. any way i am still wrestling with my view of my world and churches and like you mentioned, gun shy when i go into a new church. was paul asking for forgiveness? one person, after 6 months finally started to say why they didnt attend gateway anymore and it made me wonder why people dont warn others. https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/06/12/how-to-respond-to-a-faith-crisis-establishing-and-building-trust/. Far as I can tell Driscoll is arrogant, a lover of money, unholy, not above reproach, etc. Che badgered/shamed the workers that receiving a pat on the back from their boss/comrade for increasing the quota should be enough for them to continue to increase production without any chance of being compensated for it monetarily. ". I sometimes think the man has no friends, but if he does, they should help him now. So, I read what he wrote, I listened to his speeches, sermons, etc. Maybe six months from now, there'll be another terrible story, and we'll know that they BS'd us. If so you may be onto something. Rumors that circulated after the trial of Paul Petry. You would think that over a decade of Manly Man, sexist, dude-bro, preachers that people have had enough, the novelty has worn off, and theyre ready to get real about Church and the faith again? He can darn well get used to a lower standard of living. At that time, although I led Agathos, I was not taking a salary from Agathos. i hope people will go back and read the whole thing if they havent yet. But guess what else happened? News articles and such are also greatly appreciated. . So as long as Driscoll can provide entertainment and ratings, Pentecostals will continue to book him. For all the lack of American Idol production values I learned more in that one day of teaching at that little church then I did in all the years I attended Gateway. where is God in all this? When not enough graduates came forward they started begging people please any graduate or relative of a graduate, even if you just graduated from Kindergarten, please please come get your free gift because what Kindergartner doesnt need advice on how to buy a car? Posted by NancyAlcorn at 1:06 PM 2 comments. But it would be encouraging if they did. James River Church | Christian Church - Springfield, MO "And how many knownot everything you read on the internet is true". I also have recently spoken to another ministry leader involved in orphan care in Africa. All the more reason that Driscoll appears arrogant and pompous to me and doesnt at all seem to understand the damage hes caused. Your comment about magic words reminded me of Simon the Magician in Acts who was so popular and had all kinds of attention because of his magic performances. Maybe Driscoll feels a notch above Paul since hes not called for any ones death? ( a stage really ) Same old spin .different tune. Sopy Which is all to say that if he was a wanted man back in Jerusalem and the believers did not trust him, then some of the credit for his going away for a few years goes to those who did not let him just keep on keeping on, despite some abrupt lateral entry into proto-christianity. Now I am working on something for Monday. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-07/royal-commission-child-sexual-abuse-investigates-hillsong/5795308 The emails we received were similarly written. Wow! plausible they shoved that in jesus mouth, with that taste on his lips. (the death of Jesus on the cross as written in the bible is not enough, mark adds something more exciting and sickening like they shoved an a##-wipe sponge in Jesus mouth.) His behaviour has been SO egregious, that I believe that he needs to stay out of anything that offers him a place of leadership or authority. Its appalling that through your words and actions you are able to re-injure the real victims with such ease all while smiling and chuckling on your stage. think of him as he is pray to glorified jesusking of kings lord of lords worshiped by angels. stephen says Ive gotta find jesus on the worst most devasting difficult damaging day of my life I have to find jesus (more mark interpreting the bible for all of us non pastors, stephen already knew where Jesus was) and he sees jesus, what is jesus doing? Mind you I find Driscoll a tool in case I havent made that obvious. (stephen the shepherd? Ches rise and fall occurred before I was born so Id sincerely appreciate any insight and correction. Do any of you who oppose Driscoll preaching or running a church again, is there a way he could ever get forgiveness from yall to do that sort of ministry again? these were murders not trials. In December 2007, Merle and I quietly left Mars Hill Church. I really do believe that Driscoll has sociopathic tendencies. If so you may be onto something. kinda like a person who has been abused i think, they sometimes have to get past that people may judge them for being stupid for falling for it, or they have to reconcile with the results of them speaking out, shunning, slander ie: the church calls them heretics because they dont attend anymore. Pastors who give Mark Driscoll a platform are adding to the abuse of those of us who were abusively treated by Mars Hill Church. How much do James River Church employees make? I can forgive someone even without an apology. A lot of people will say, 'I got that. if mark is not truly repentant, (which is totally conceivable since he has never apologized for anything except being too unkind in firing people and running people into the ground under his God given authority) then this could be compared, (by sin levelers who will be quick to show up here and defend him)this could be compared to Jordan Root getting right back in the mission field and preaching about what happens when women and heathens in the press persecute godly people accused of child porn addictions with no evidence. Don't you know that the way he behaved and treated people is no big deal? Bingo. This has nothing to do with the recent downfall of Mark and demise of Mars Hill. His statement is factually incorrect. He should not be making a buck off Jesus in any way, shape, or form, IMO. I agree that if the object is to fill seats and keep the money flowing in, then Driscoll and the others are doing a great job. luke was paul's dr and paul was luke's pastor. If you take his quotes about his economic policies in Cuba and substitute covenant or biblical Gospel he sounds about the same as the pastors we are discussing. I asked the mayor, specifically, how he will vote on the matter April 7. I wish just one person would have spoken up sooner. In case this was not a rhetorical question, Mark also provided the all important yet elusive authentic community. Something has gone seriously wrong in Mega-Land and it aint just thinking about having MD speak at one of their conferences. Title no., Thats the crux of the message, isnt it? there is a minor child involved that both of them love deeply. Prayer Requests I have a young friend who was totally enamored with him. At some point, with enough outcry and rage from outside, they may hopefully see it as you did looking up at that 3 x 5 card on your bulletin. I know that tens of thousands left GW before I did and they walked away without the decency to help others. I want to know how I was deceived. Theres a persistent rumor that hes going to bring his show here to Phoenix. Sex abuse inquiry to hear how churches responded to allegations against his father, Frank Houston, and two other men. This stuff was high on the why we are how we are list back in the day. "This ordinance reduces freedom of religion to freedom of worship," he said. Going forward, we are committed to doing a better job of encouraging and maintaining the procedures necessary to keep people safe and secure, James River Church officials explained. i think they ended up closing them or not being involved in them anymore, there is an american branch of them now though. The he takes him back to Antioch where they work together for a year with converted Gentiles. But here is the underlying issue: we in evangelical Christianity have become so good at eisogeting the scriptures (reading ourselves into the story) it has gotten to the point of narcissism, or as one preacher puts it, narcigesis., Dont believe me? Jesus Church or 501(c)3 Religious business? You have no idea how freeing it has been not to be shamed into believing the best groupthink of celebs when in fact, patterns, polity, hierarchical doctrines and associations should have given us pause all along. © 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - The Wartburg Watch. I never thought of that but that certainly might be the case. I just think that there is not much reason to listen to just his side of the story and think that is all there may be to it. Missouri church service Saturday evening. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1989926/posts I study a lot of the giant DFW megas but most of my data is still filtered through the Gateway lens. Its a professional, corporate institutional model based on an unbiblical clergy/ laity distinction. everything that happened at the cross was prophesied about long before Jesus was crucified, one propesy: Psalm 69:20-21 The mighty Kari Jobe is featured in some of the faking it videos they play in the classes. notable pastors have been pouring into his life. Nancy, i think theres a lot of truth to what you say, and its more than posdible that people he was addressing in his letters knew at least something about that. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. I am not the judge of the hearts of men, but God has given us clues to the genuine presence of the Spirit, and I did not see it. But we don't know yet for sure. 21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. In his introductory remarks, he spoke of Marks kindness, humility, and genuine interest in people. i have met people that have told me that they went to gateway (and other churches that are similar) but no longer do without ever saying why. then mark goes on to teach us that we must forgive even if the person never admits wrong or says I am sorry: vengance is where you make someone pay. Hmmm, trust the Spirit, and let them be killed like Ananias and Sapphira? You can learn a lot about someones character from how they treat those who are below them in status. Its easy to be friendly, humble, attentive, polite, , to your peers and to your superiors. All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card. Mot only do I think Driscoll is a wolf in sheeps clothing, but I think hes opportunistic, and because being a preacher is all he knows. This is not a measure of faith. I had never heard someone talk like that. He did it from one of the most powerful places in Southwest Missouri the pulpit of James River Church, where he leads an Assemblies of God congregation that often tops 9,000 worshipers on Sundays. He was an abusing thug. Ok, I looked up Hillsong because I know in the past theres been a bit of controversy about them. Hope youll give us another try and check out some other articles. Even if youre looking at Christianity from a strictly business like mindset, I dont see how its good marketing or profitable to do the sexist shtick. Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. Clear All United States - All Cities signed, Still Looking, first i wasnt refering to anything lindell wrote but only his intro for mark driscoll because i have never read anything he wrote and dont want to. Very simple. All 6,115 words of it. Galatians 5:22-23. I wish he would try to get a corporate communications job or something though. And probably they wont. If any blogger made such a vague blanket statement as this theyd be called out immediately. I think MD needs a season in the wilderness to really think things out. Hi Nancy, I am a graduate from Sydney and I just want to say thank you so very much for making Mercy a possibility for girls like myself to be able to go to here in Australia, it has truly saved my life and given me a future. To tell, perhaps? For those who follow celebrities, I dont, this is the church that made it into the news last year. 6100 N 19th St Ozark, MO 65721 Directions. The way I see things may be different in that I see the individuals in the Kingdom being more important than mediating organizations in the church universal. Lydia wrote: What I did not know, was that Jamie Munson and Scott Thomas had called Marc Fulmer, who leads Agathos to this day, and threatened to pull support unless I resigned from Agathos and Mars Hill Church took it over and re-branded the ministry as a Mars Hill ministry. What Im curious though is how the church (corporate) can self regulate against that in the face of the money and power, both spiritual and temporal, that types like MD help create. vengance is where you make someone pay. The James River Church Joplin Campus, located at 1850 S Maiden Ln, Joplin, MO 64801 now has a permanent location! Even setting aside his vulgarity, what of his abusiveness, his corruption? Yes, Lord, he answered. The Reformed Neo Cal world is going, Mark who?. Sometimes people get the idea that everybody needs some church-recognized ministry. At this point it seems to me that this would be the last thing that MD needed if he wants to get himself turned around. @ Nancy: Edit: Thank you to everyone who commented. I dont feel I HAVE to agree with you. Judging a pastors or missionaries repentance is not being critical of pastors, its saying, this is a position that has really high moral qualifications and if you dont have them, get out of the pulpit. But forgiveness doesnt mean he should ever be in the same position in a church again. pastors that use their position to wreck peoples lives arent expected to go to jail or show tears publicly and thats ok if its not warranted but it is very reasonable for people to see something, anything, that looks like actual remorse before they think its ok for them to go back to influencing the lives of people. Why would either (or any) group that knew him in his previous state ever trust him without lots of evidence of change. The City of Ozark has an established process in place to investigate, enforce, and educate violators of the ordinance, the department said before stating that it does not condone the flouting of health mandates. Unless of course, they give up the celebrity/money/position and go into obscurity getting real jobs. I have learned much on this blog and often from your comments which are intelligent and insightful. He diverts attention from the real purpose, the Gospel, to himself. Who has harmed you? If one other person had confirmed my concerns then I would not have pushed my data points aside as just being something only I had an issue with. . Because you worked with multiple megas you have a very diverse perspective that is invaluable. Missouri megachurch under fire over crowded Christmas services | Church Otherwise, quit calling those 40 pastors and all those victims liars. we will see jesus face to face I dont want you to take your slander etc with you. I assumed that it was just me and 25,000 other people had no issue. Why would either (or any) group that knew him in his previous state ever trust him without lots of evidence of change. How about the demon trials? Actually are pews still in general use? ++++++++++++++++++. I have heard Driscoll in person.. It is like embezzlers working around money. But we dont know yet for sure. Thats an interesting thought. one had an alcohol problem 3 years ago and one has a drug problem that recently occured due to overprescribing of pain medication turned to street drug use. i was thinking about how i probably sound critical to some people when i post on here about how i dont think people are apologizing right. So, I read what he wrote, I listened to his speeches, sermons, etc. Humility? Bummer. Because 12 years ago Walter Salles made an awesome movie about him called The Motorcycle Diaries starring the gentle heartthrob Gael Garcia Bernal as Che. I fully understand the depression and near paralysis that comes after leaving a cult. What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. I have read many accounts that his nickname throughout life was el chancho (pig). Why dont Driscoll and the boyz just get it over with and rename their religion Paulianity? where is Mark Driscolls apology to over a thousand children in two orphanages? It is an issue of protecting other people. And of course, the author of Acts is writing more of a historical narrative so we dont get a lot of details. But. Youll notice the Pentecostals elevating him are in their 50s and 60s. His career has been a total focus on getting his narcissistic supply. I also dont think he should work or earn profit in any manner making money off Jesus (such as selling Christian books, pod casts, site subscriptions, accepting speaking fees to appear at churches, etc). If anything, Chandler has to present himself as the UnMark to a degree that few connect dots. Did Paul hire a company to buy his books and get them on the bestseller list? 14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah. Its more the non-complementarian position to argue that women should be allowed to preach/lead based on gifting and that sounds like the argument Driscoll is raising in the quotes by him I placed in this post. Gr8 fun. There is no painting a happy face on Driscoll. Dont forget his church plant was asked to leave my kids school at the time. Highlights - Stronger Men's Conference 2023 (See screen shot from the church website. when the pastor first says, his humility he almost breaks out laughing (cause maybe he knows how stupid it is to say that). Driscoll, IMHO, is completely unsuited for any position of authority. Are you not reporting instant healing to keep the confirmed miracle count up? But what does that mean in the larger picture? that young man is in jail, he didnt receive a huge sentence and is receiving a great outpouring of care and compassion from the community. we see this in culture and politics all the time. Like the guy who was in charge of SGM, he got away scot-free and is doing well for himself despite the outcry against him. There are plenty of people within the Christian faith that have their own issues with mega churches but people outside of it especially do. I am not surprised he is mobilizing his church, which packs a powerful political punch through the sheer number of members and, I believe, their commitment to vote. Its all good until (insert question or issue). She was warned not to work with Agathos. Nor to any of the other dead bodies behind the bus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle, https://musingsfromunderthebus.wordpress.com/, https://musingsfromunderthebus.wordpress.com/2015/02/13/mars-hill-church-true-religion-does-not-abandon-orphans-and-widows-in-their-distress/, http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers/jewish-polemics/texts/christian-proof-texting/, http://godsbreath.net/2007/11/07/qualifications-for-pastors/, http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1989926/posts, http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/oct/07/hillsong-pastor-brian-houston-found-fathers-sex-abuse-confession-agonising, http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-07/royal-commission-child-sexual-abuse-investigates-hillsong/5795308, http://www.nancyalcorn.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=21, http://nativenewsonline.net/currents/the-dilemma-of-the-fourth-of-july/, http://www.smh.com.au/national/hillsong-conference-shows-interview-with-controversial-us-pastor-mark-driscoll-20150630-gi1y6d.html, http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/june/distraction-down-under-hillsong-mark-driscoll-conference.html, In reply to forgiven-to-be-forgiving .
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